that is stable, and how do we avoid such fragmentation that the conflict in syria spills over into jordan and lebanon and conceivably also activates conflicts in iraq. this is the real danger, and not a lot of hysterical talk about imminent use of some sort of chemical weapons. >> i hear you saying hysterical talk and hype, but the bottom line is more than 40,000 people there have been killed, women and children. >> well, you know, first of all, 40,000 people have been killed probably somewhat on both sides because of acts of violence taking place this damascus as well and so forth. secondly, no one has counted them. we know historically that all such estimates made during conflict tend to be overstated. >> well, we know that our reporters certainly on the ground have seen some of it firsthand. >> well, they haven't counted them. the fact of the matter is these are estimates, and i can understand how in a serious conflict estimates are made quickly and they are at best an approximation. >> this week the secretary of state hillary clinton, she met with russia's foreign minister and the u.n